I've been thinking:

"Wheelerguy" (wheelerguy) 08/29/2016 at 20:00 • Filed to: They can't be that expensive can it now?, War, Fighter Planes, Tanks, NPoCP

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The generation where these bad boys belong to should be pretty reasonably-priced. Maybe.

And surely there are Gen-3 tanks that can be had for relative plinks.

Is there such a thing as certified pre-owned Western (fuck Chinese and Russian) air superiority and/or multirole planes and main battle tanks? And which ones can The Philippines afford*?

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beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > Wheelerguy 08/28/2016 at 06:12

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I know where there’s some F-111's in Australia.

KatzManDu > Wheelerguy 08/28/2016 at 06:13

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Japan and Taiwan probably have some F4s and F16s they’ll sell on as they adopt the F35 and other gear (I believe the Japanese have some home-grown stuff they’re working on.)

I think the Philippines will eventually welcome back a US base or three.

Then again, you can always start your own air force this way:

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?categor…

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?categor…

Wheelerguy > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard 08/28/2016 at 06:14

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Goddamn it.

Wheelerguy > KatzManDu 08/28/2016 at 06:24

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Yeah, yeah, F-16's. Those would be nice.

El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! > Wheelerguy 08/28/2016 at 06:36

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First of all, who is going to attack the Philippines? I don’t see you people needing tanks, as they’re heavy, slow and need special coating to resist the humid climate.

The Stryker is a better option.

It’s fast, flexible and comes in a ton of configurations.

As for planes, F16 should be easy to grab as NATO members are discarding them, to get F35's and Typhoons. New planes can be expensive, with the Rafale and the Gripen being the most affordable.

The F15 still costs more than 100 million dollars.

Wheelerguy > El Relámpago(LZone) - Humanity First! 08/28/2016 at 07:01

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I mean, I guess I worry that if China runs out out of patience and sanctions they’d declare war and I’m worried that the nation is under gunned (we are), but mostly, I was looking forward to seeing which hot fuckers can be had for relative cheap.

Besides, if it does come to that point where war gets declared, I reckon most every NATO ally will step in to provide anything needed and attack on our behalf. And even then it will still be a maritime battle first, with the air battles concentrated at sea, unless they use paratroopers or carpet-bomb the city.

BTW, that’s an amazing FV. Should be a nice upgrade to the current arsenal.

Sam > Wheelerguy 08/28/2016 at 07:14

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I don’t think China will risk a war over the Philippines. I see no strategic advantage in owning it, unless they plan on attacking Japan or something.

Wheelerguy > Sam 08/28/2016 at 07:28

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True, but this kind of stuff starts with sanctions gone spiral, which start from when China gets fed up from all these claims. They’re not building those airfields for nothing.

Thing is, I still have no idea how China will respond once we ramp up the pestering and daring and defiance to daredevil levels. It will all come down to whatever bilateral talks the two countries can coddle up. If something gets fishy then we can call them out, and who knows how they’d respond. Hopefully the conversation goes like this:

PHI: It’s OURS, DANGNABBIT!!!
CHN: No, it’s ours!
PHI: IT’S OURS!!!
CHN: IT’S NOT!!!
PHI: IT’S OURS!!!
CHN: Alright, alright, there you go, take it. We left the airfields intact. We’re not touching any of that anymore. Happy now?
PHI: Yeah, but we’re watching you. The whole world is.

Frenchlicker > Wheelerguy 08/28/2016 at 08:08

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Our government gives away weapons systems to other countries quite often it seems. I guess that is kind of like CPO.

whoarder is tellurium > Wheelerguy 08/28/2016 at 08:40

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M60A3 w/ SLEP upgrade

The Philippines already appear to be buying the KAI T-50 (as FA-50 variant):

Buy new or buy something with an existing maintenance and replenishment program.

If you can swing it, might as well go Advanced Super Hornet.

facw > Sam 08/28/2016 at 09:12

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It’s not that China wants to own the Philippines (though they did have a large historical presence there, there were normally more Chinese than Filipinos or Spaniards in Manilla during the colonial era).

The real issue is conflicting claims in the South China Sea, which could lead to conflict. I’m not sure how much it matters though, The Philippines can’t come anywhere close to matching China militarily, so they should be focused on diplomacy, with the ultimate goals of securing punishing sanctions should China continue abusing Filapino fishermen in the wake of the UN ruling, and possibly forming a mutual defense organisation with the other E/SE Asian nations threatened by China.

facw > Wheelerguy 08/28/2016 at 09:21

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There are a couple problems with used aircraft. The first is that they can still be super expensive to operate, which makes them pricey even if you get a deal on the sale. The other problem is that aluminum airframes are only good for a certain number of hours (the F-35 is expected to last a lot longer due to not being subject to aluminum’s limited lifespan.) So someone can sell you an F-16 cheap, but you’d want one with some service life left.

The Philippines is probably doing the right thing by buying the FA-50 rather than getting some used F-16s. Performance isn’t as good, but you get modern avionics and weapon capabilities, in a less expensive to operate package.

If they wanted to buy “real” fighters, the Saab Gripen seems like the most cost effective offering on the market.

Wheelerguy > facw 08/28/2016 at 09:38

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I actually like the FA-50. It’s a supersonic fighter that’s got chocks full of maneuverability, relatively cheap to run, fires good, and can be had in bunches because. It’s like BMW M2 of supersonic fighters—wait, that’s wrong, shit!

I guess what I want is a plane that is pretty much like the FA-50, but is kinda like an F-22 a well: a small, supersonic light fighter with the radar cross-section of a flea. Literally. A bare-bones, pint-sized F-22 Junior Lite . Take that, German automobile marketing departments!

Leadbull > Frenchlicker 08/28/2016 at 09:46

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A lot of the time, the jets we sell to foreign countries are factory fresh.

Frenchlicker > Leadbull 08/28/2016 at 10:03

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Good point, isn’t there a military program where we help smaller countries with our old equipment?

facw > Wheelerguy 08/28/2016 at 10:26

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The FA-50 badly needs support for longer range A2A missiles (right now I think it can only take sidewinders, but I think AMRAAM support is planned), but otherwise seems like a nice plane.

There’s be a big market for a stealth F-5, but the problem is it is tough to make a fighter that is small and stealthy, due to the need for an internal weapons bay. Even if you limited capacity to two sidewinders and two AMRAAMs, that a lot of space to tack onto a small airframe.

Wheelerguy > facw 08/28/2016 at 11:08

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This is the reason why—ah shit.

See, I was about to go at length on developing a new missile suite that’s small enough to fit the kind of fighter I have in mind while still packing maybe 80% of the punch, but then I remembered R&D costs and all the political hoopla and thought “That sounds like much trouble for something we wouldn’t really need”.

Then I thought: Hey, aren’t there guided bullets? Maybe, just maybe, it would be a little cheaper to make guided 30mm rounds. Oh, right, I want 600 of those per barrel, and I want 4 barrels. That kind of shit is expensive to make and fire. Shit.

What must it be like to be a contractor in the military-industrial complex?

BorkBorkBjork > Wheelerguy 08/28/2016 at 11:35

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With China’s increasing amount of aggression in the region, considerations such as this have never been more relevant. It is highly unlikely that any nation, apart from the US, would go to the aid of the Phillipines if a conflict were to erupt with China. However, China’s current military posture is one of anti-access and area-denial. This means that getting US assistance during the conflict will be most difficult.

Typically, with such considerations, a nation has two choices on how to prepare: symmetrically or asymmetrically.

In this instance, symmetry is impossible. The Phillipines do not have the money or the population to go toe-to-toe with the People’s Republic of China. If a conflict were to arise, any aircraft the Phillipine Air Force were able to field would have a limited life span, even advanced 4th or 4.5 generation aircraft. Air combat of today is not nearly as simple as that of days past, a fighting air force needs significant resources outside the combat aircraft. You also need expensive AWACs, airborne tankers, and vast amounts of spare aircraft and parts.

So the only real option for the Phillipines is a symmetric warfare. Think of this as fighting a war from the Dollar Store. A Chinese J-20 costs around $110 Million USD, whereas a single RIM-67 Standard Missile costs around $400,000 USD. A Type 99 Main Battle Tank cost around $1.5 Million USD, whereas an Anti-Tank mine can cost less than $100 USD. This can get messy quick, since cheap weapons systems can be pretty indiscriminate. A sea mine is not going to know the difference between a Chinese Frigate and a Carnival Cruise Ship.

Of course, even these weapons systems can be knocked out or overcome, so a good strategy would be to hide significant amounts of small arms caches around the country in preparation for a guerilla-style conflict. China has been beaten back before by such tactics employed masterfully by the Vietnamese in the late 70s.

Not really the answer you wanted, but I hope this helps. You aren’t some Philippine Minister of Defense, are you?

MGS315 > Wheelerguy 08/28/2016 at 13:17

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The FA-50 always looks like a GTA mashup of an F-16 and an L-39 to me.

Wheelerguy > BorkBorkBjork 08/28/2016 at 13:58

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“Not really the answer you wanted, but I hope this helps. You aren’t some Philippine Minister of Defense, are you?”

No, just Wheelerguy, and it all started when I thought CPO also applies to military equipment (it does).

But your comment did fire up my brain. I think your strategy will work, but to do so, I’m gonna have to make the fighting go into the deep forests of, say, the Cordilleras, or anywhere that isn’t an open place where the Chinese can just plough through. This will call for a trench battle of a different kind, more terrain-based and reliant on ambushes. Decoy attacks are needed too, I reckon, to make lootings possible.

EDIT: If a big-city siege is really unavoidable, might as well rig it as a big, elaborate trap. Make the streets collapse about 10 ft below, pull down buildings, all that stuff.

Also, I’m looking for the wrong aircraft, I realized, now. What I need are close-in combat planes and small choppers that can be had with easy snap-on armament, or even merely technicals based on old pickups bought from used-car lots.

Ships. That’s my new worry. The waterways are basically boulevards for the PLA Navy to easily pass through. And of course we don’t have much boats, let alone ships. Besides the bridge, where do I fire my armament so the ships are disabled?

EDIT: Typhoons!!! Not the plane, I mean actual typhoons. I have to take advantage of the storm season and make offensives while the PLA are stuck in a quagmire. Track a storm, force the fighting where that storm is going. Weather stations will be a valuable resource, so I also have to defend them.

wiffleballtony > Wheelerguy 08/28/2016 at 15:17

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My understanding of purchasing US made material is also tied to a service contract. Without that contract it’s hard for the purchasing country to service their materials. It serves as an insurance policy so the US can pull the plug on a foreign country using high tech American weapons in a manner we dislike for any extended period of time. As such, I doubt there’d be any CPO on American gear. Maybe one of the other NATO countries like France might.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > Wheelerguy 08/28/2016 at 19:43

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You don’t want them, they’re full of Asbestos which is why they had to be buried. Not even the kinda safe Chrysotile, it’s Amosite and Crocidolite cladding for the electronics and such.

Wheelerguy > wiffleballtony 08/28/2016 at 23:21

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Hey, you know, Mirages are nice, too.

wiffleballtony > Wheelerguy 08/28/2016 at 23:37

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A tad spartan but I suppose they could work.

Wheelerguy > wiffleballtony 08/29/2016 at 02:14

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Yes, yes they are.

They’re also pretty nice to tune and rally.

ttyymmnn > Wheelerguy 08/29/2016 at 20:06

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Ran when parked. Make me an offer. No low ballers.

Viggen > Wheelerguy 08/29/2016 at 21:05

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I’m just gonna say it. You had a defense The Philippines could afford when the USAF operated out of Clark and the USN out of Cubi Point/Subic Bay.

Honestly I can’t see The Philippines being able to afford the number of aircraft required to make a meaningful dent in a hostile force with large numbers. Hell half of NATO can’t. The TA-50s, yeah they’ll be good for air policing and national pride and that’s about it. What the Philippines should be focusing on are surface to air and surface to surface missiles and an effective communications and electronic warfare plan. Also quick reaction ground forces.

China would produce an unbelievable high threat environment that’ll make even the most experienced Viper pilots in NATO sweat.

Wheelerguy > ttyymmnn 08/29/2016 at 23:44

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Nice, but unfortunately none of the scrapyards here cater to American aircraft and rotorcraft.

Also, I should be looking at rotorcraft more, as well as wheeled fighting vehicles that have an autoloading semi-tank turret (100mm) and practice shooting down fighter planes danger close.

Comes over to help work on your car and only drinks beer > ttyymmnn 09/19/2016 at 09:08

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^^^^He knows what he has. :-)